DenMeister,

It's difficult to disagree with you, because what you say are all true. So in principle, I am on your side.

But I also look at the issue pragmatically.

There will always be freeloaders. We will have to balance a trade off somewhere. For argument sake , we set the condition as 1,000 posts before you can do BST. We know this will mean that no one will post any BST.

So what is the minimum level that will not discourage legitimate, passionate forumers to post BST? Say 10. And if a freeloader wants to just post one-liner to qualify himself, he will do it 10 times. Piece of cake.

Then we keep moving the bar up.....and he will still do it to meet the bar, until it approaches a point where both he and other passionate forumers become discouraged.

My point is this, it's not practical to set such conditions without trade off.

Brian has said that he will look into this. He did not say that he will change the rule. I don't see why there should be disappoinment at his diplomatic reply.

We trust Brian and his team of Mods to debate the merits on this issue, and then come up with their decisions, which we will accept. If it's status quo, so be it. I will not leave the forum just because one single issue.

Isn't this supposed to be a democratic forum where we all can freely expresse our views? We are not pointing a gun at Brian and say : You must change the rule, or we will leave the forum. Who cares if anyone wants to leave this forum?

agree with freedrop n geraldsaw.

Thanks gbrian for ur consideration. Although u might not say much, but at least u do try to emphatize the situation n look into it again.

as for denmeister..i think its more of a case of what you like to see in this forum and what constitutes a lively forum for u on a personal level. No offense but i don't think u slightly even consider our plight n opinions. And clearly u enjoy n thrive on being the Bad Cop

as for freedrop comments...mygolf is one of the avenues for us golfers to buy n sell. and no, other avenues do not have subscription fee wutsoever. we as avid golfers enjoy being in the community wherever we can n as many forums as we can. so, its a waste for us having to not regularly log in this forum bcoz of the super strict rules. coz its like one door closed.

rules are needed i do not deny that. but it has to be carefully set and adjusted while considering all aspects. I know some of u may say, this is our rules, take it OR leave it (literally). so if this is that kinda forum as we r all beginning to see, i accept it n move on.

I will never think that Denmister, or even Slicer51 during his tenure, truly enjoys the role as the moderator and Rule enforcer. He (and Slicer51 then) is merely enforcing the Rule as duty-bound.

And i can also emphatise with the Mod. If the Mod was to exercise leeway every now and then for some people, then he'd be accused of being selective or practising favouritism if he allowed some non qualifiers on the BST forum. But if he was considerate of all non qualifiers to allow all of them through, then he'd be called lax or lousy Mod. So he holds on firmly to the Rule. And i think that is correct to act so without any fear or favour.

And whoever appoints the Mod must be very conscious of the duties entrusted upon the Mod, ie to enforce the Rule diligently for good order and consistency. And if someone complains because the Mod enforced the Rule strictly, that person with the powers to appoint Mod, ought not to try to play the good guy. It is like saying, "Never mind the Mod, i can listen to you even though the Mod won't listen to you."

You put the Mod there. The Mod is there because a job is to be done. Thanklessly and without pay. If the anti-Rule noise is reaching your ears, it is not the Mod's fault. It was your decision for introducing it. And it will also be your doing, not the Mod's, to dismantle it. And until you dismantle it, please stand by your Mod without his feeling discouraged by you.

okwoon wrote:

I will never think that Denmister, or even Slicer51 during his tenure, truly enjoys the role as the moderator and Rule enforcer. He (and Slicer51 then) is merely enforcing the Rule as duty-bound. And i can also emphatise with the Mod. If the Mod was to exercise leeway every now and then for some people, then he'd be accused of being selective or practising favouritism if he allows some non qualifiers on the BST forum. But if he was considerate of all non qualifiers to allow them through, then he'd be called lax or lousy Mod. So he hold on firmly to the Rule. And i think that is correct to act so without any fear or favour. And whoever appoint the Mod must be very conscious of the duties entrusted upon the Mod, ie to enforce the Rule diligently for good order and consistency. And if someone complains because the Mod enforced the Rule strictly, that person with the powers to appoint Mod, ought not to try to play the good guy. It is like saying, "Never mind the Mod, i can listen to you even though the Mod won't listen to you." You put the Mod there. The Mod is there because a job is to be done. Thanklessly and without pay. If the anti-Rule noise is reaching your ears, it is not the Mod's fault. It was your decision for introducing it. And it will also be your doing, not the Mod's, to dismantle it. And until you dismantle it stand by your Mod without his feeling discouraged by you.

Appreciate your input okwoon.
You are right. Moderator job is never easy and hardly get a pat on the back by most members as the moderator need to moderate the forum, strictly to make sure everything in order.

If you were to ask me, so far they did their task above the par (not bogey score)
They get lots of msg, negative input and some even don't like them, but our moderator still carry out their job through rain and shine. They are making sure everyone adhere to the rules and regulations. Bravo to them.

On your other point, I beg to differ. I'm am not interfering with their task.
Sometime moderators themselves do raise some issue to me and we discussed over it.
They do highlight some of the complain. But most of the communication done behind the closed door between moderators.

Bear in mind the rules setup here are based on discussion and the situation at the point.

Allow me to explain how the rules and regulations are set up.
First we analyze the current situation, then the root cause of it.
Then we propose a few solution how to counter the current situation.
Once we agreed after numerous discussion, we set up the new rules and regulations.

When I said, I'll look into it, it doesn't mean I will change it for sure.
It means we will take note. We will discuss with our moderators if the points are good.
Rules are meant to be changed or amend over the time. Isn't that what we, most of Malaysian are fighting for?

After all, this is the first set of rules and regulations in BST.
We need to accept that there will be some flaw within it.
It just the matter of time we need to find it and tuned it.

We are opening up our ears if the point does make sense.
This is an open communication forum. Everyone has the right to voice up.
Some member dislike me and tell me off the face. And I accept it openly cause I always understand one thing, you can't please the whole world, in fact nobody will.

Every members will have their own opinion. Those with good opinion, we will listen and look into it.
This is the only way to improve the forum. And my only intention is to improve the forum, not staying put in stagnant and does not follow the ever changing world.

Yes, some of my action will upset some members. I acknowledge it. And I know some even already have their own plan. However, I can't stop anyone from getting upset and I can't please a certain group of people when this forum are meant for everyone. We need to consider other members too.
But again this does not mean we will bypass the moderators, as they are the law enforcer. Whatever decision we made, it has to be agreed by them as they are the one who is facing the situation everyday.

Hopefully you guys can understand the situation we are in. Whatever decision we made, it's meant for majority and the forum. Nothing personal.

However, this does not mean whatever decision we made are not meant to be challenged.
I said it and i will say it again, give us good suggestion or point. We will look into it.

Cheers!
Brian.


p/s: okwoon, I really appreciate you voice it up. At least I know you do care about this forum.

the forum itself has a greater value to contribute the golf knowledge rather just buy and sell.

we also want to elimiate those unknown to selling something without knowing who they are. this is especially protect those new comer and beginner.

of cos, the forum itself doesn't program with some smart algorithm now to automate it. based on the maual intervention, this is the much that Mod can do.

Magic wrote:

the forum itself has a greater value to contribute the golf knowledge rather just buy and sell. we also want to elimiate those unknown to selling something without knowing who they are. this is especially protect those new comer and beginner. of cos, the forum itself doesn't program with some smart algorithm now to automate it. based on the maual intervention, this is the much that Mod can do.

One can talk about:
1. The Rule itself
2. Enforcement of the Rule
3. Supporting the Rule in force until revocation/amendment

There are many views put forth about the Rule itself, both before and after the Rule is implemented. And such views continue to come in.
To enforce the Rule, Moderators were appointed to do just that since the system is not savvy enough to auto do it.
The last part is the issue on hand.

Let's put it this way,

We are guests to Mygolf.
gbrian is the house owner.
He has final say to the rules.
I see myself as a helper to enforce the rules like a robot.

If gbrian decides to change the rules, to me, he has final say.

It will be helpful though, if there is automation in place to immediately filter posts that do not adhere to the rules like the number of posts and tenure of membership etc.

Moderator's job will be to moderate subjective matters. Leave the objective matters to automation.

Bottomline, the rules will never please EVERYONE.

Brian, as a moderator in Mygolf, I enforce the rules. If you do decide to change them, I will reacquaint with them and enforce.

frankly. i don't see what's the fuss with the BST rules.
this is a community forum. majority shareholders' benefit should be upheld and prioritized.
i see mostly are happy with the rules, and so be it. majority wins.

we do know some are not so outspoken while some are yappy.
but then this is a forum. forum means we speak, we talk, we discuss, we share, we mingle.
therefore, those that speak more are deemed as the active members in the Forum. is it not?

the claims of those i come in everyday, i don't speak, i just observe but i should be tagged as an "active" member do not hold. it seems very naive and arrogant. it's akin to a Window Shoppers who goes into a shop daily, look see, look see and don't buy or help up with the shop aka don't contribute to the shops activity or sales.

if you own this shop, who would you give the priority, the actual customers who contribute or the window shoppers who merely complains?

I for one support Brian and Dennis, Slicers and other moderators for their job well-done in upholding the benefit of the Forum to keep it clean from abuse. So guys, keep it alive.

for those that oppose to the 50 post. don't worry. cos, 50 post is so easily obtained, be it genuinely or creatively.

p/s: by complaining here 3-4 times a day, you'll reach 50 posts in 2 weeks.

xenoed wrote:

frankly. i don't see what's the fuss with the BST rules. this is a community forum. majority shareholders' benefit should be upheld and prioritized. i see mostly are happy with the rules, and so be it. majority wins. we do know some are not so outspoken while some are yappy. but then this is a forum. forum means we speak, we talk, we discuss, we share, we mingle. therefore, those that speak more are deemed as the active members in the Forum. is it not? the claims of those i come in everyday, i don't speak, i just observe but i should be tagged as an "active" member do not hold. it seems very naive and arrogant. it's a keen to a Window Shoppers who goes into a shop daily, look see, look see and don't buy or help up with the shop aka don't contribute to the shops activity or sales. if you own this shop, who would you give the priority, the actual customers who contribute or the window shoppers who merely complains? I for one support Brian and Dennis, Slicers and other moderators for their job well-done in upholding the benefit of the Forum to keep it clean from abuse. So guys, keep it alive. for those that oppose to the 50 post. don't worry. cos, 50 post is so easily obtained, be it genuinely or creatively. p/s: by complaining here 3-4 times a day, you'll reach 50 posts in 2 weeks.

window shoppers don't count and are unimportant ?!
I don't think so.

Look at the left hand side of this page. See "Statistics" and "Who is online".
Window shoppers and passive members are included! Even Visitors volume over 6 months are proudly displayed.

I think they all count and are important to the shopowner. not too sure if they count and are important to the other active shoppers though.

My take:

1] Rules are rules; we play golf, we know better. If rules get changed all the time, they will lose their significance.

2] There are no perfect rules or solutions to address every problem; in another words, we can't please everyone; so, don't even try.

3] IMHO, 70% or maybe 75% considered majority; just manage the remaining % i.e. the minority. No point trying to boil the ocean.

4] Ask ourselves, apart from the "Marketplace"; what have we done to add value to the forum? what are our contributions?

Thx

okwoon wrote:

xenoed wrote: frankly. i don't see what's the fuss with the BST rules. this is a community forum. majority shareholders' benefit should be upheld and prioritized. i see mostly are happy with the rules, and so be it. majority wins. we do know some are not so outspoken while some are yappy. but then this is a forum. forum means we speak, we talk, we discuss, we share, we mingle. therefore, those that speak more are deemed as the active members in the Forum. is it not? the claims of those i come in everyday, i don't speak, i just observe but i should be tagged as an "active" member do not hold. it seems very naive and arrogant. it's a keen to a Window Shoppers who goes into a shop daily, look see, look see and don't buy or help up with the shop aka don't contribute to the shops activity or sales. if you own this shop, who would you give the priority, the actual customers who contribute or the window shoppers who merely complains? I for one support Brian and Dennis, Slicers and other moderators for their job well-done in upholding the benefit of the Forum to keep it clean from abuse. So guys, keep it alive. for those that oppose to the 50 post. don't worry. cos, 50 post is so easily obtained, be it genuinely or creatively. p/s: by complaining here 3-4 times a day, you'll reach 50 posts in 2 weeks. window shoppers don't count and are unimportant ?! I don't think so. Look at the left hand side of this page. See "Statistics" and "Who is online". Window shoppers and passive members are included! Even Visitors volume over 6 months are proudly displayed. I think they all count and are important to the shopowner. not too sure if they count and are important to the other active shoppers though.

I didn't say Window Shoppers are not important. I said, Active Members, the people who actually contributing should be given the priority. The people who milk the cow gets the milk first, unless, others are the OKU, then we prioritize them.

Those that are below 50 posts criteria, can always continue to complaining that they don't reach 50 posts and giving new ideas, new inputs to lower the criteria..... guess, what, eventually they become an Active Member exceeding 50 posts... so if they want their voices to be counted. Be active with us.


btw, i don't even considered myself to be an active member. Have joined this forum for close to 3 years but only written 100+ posts.

p/s:
side note: your point of online users are irrelevant to this topic. Online doesn't constitute as Active, more like observers.

IGT wrote:

My take: 1] Rules are rules; we play golf, we know better. If rules get changed all the time, they will lose their significance. 2] There are no perfect rules or solutions to address every problem; in another words, we can't please everyone; so, don't even try. 3] IMHO, 70% or maybe 75% considered majority; just manage the remaining % i.e. the minority. No point trying to boil the ocean. 4] Ask ourselves, apart from the "Marketplace"; what have we done to add value to the forum? what are our contributions? Thx

fully agreed.

truncated for ease of reference.

xenoed wrote:

okwoon wrote: I think they all count and are important to the shopowner.. not too sure if they count and are important to the other active shoppers though. . side note: your point of online users are irrelevant to this topic. Online doesn't constitute as Active, more like observers.

good to have some mental exercise.

Since you talked of the shopowner within your earlier post before the above, i had used the same position of the shopowner's perspective, in red. i think the statistics and figures are relevant to him in valuation/marketing terms. He may or may not disclose so to us.

I have also have my doubts whether the figures are of importance in the viewpoint of the other users (in blue). now i know a bit the view of one user at least.

Thanks..

okwoon wrote:

truncated for ease of reference. xenoed wrote: okwoon wrote: I think they all count and are important to the shopowner.. not too sure if they count and are important to the other active shoppers though. . side note: your point of online users are irrelevant to this topic. Online doesn't constitute as Active, more like observers. good to have some mental exercise. Since you talked of the shopowner within your earlier post before the above, i had used the same position of the shopowner's perspective, in red. i think the statistics and figures are relevant to him in valuation/marketing terms. He may or may not disclose so to us. I have also have my doubts whether the figures are of importance to the other users. now i know a bit the view of one user at least. Thanks..

aiyo, OK.
from the marketing & branding perspective, we do include all information when we do analysis. then we will filter the irrelevant info and make the important info to be called the intelligence.

therefore, visitors do count. their input will be valued too. but priority will always be given to maintaining the loyalty of the active customers... we can't please the world. that's the general rule for marketing. ops. am i side tracked?

p.s: OK, when are you joining the WGC game again?
oh ya, this is Edwin, btw. haha

xenoed wrote:

okwoon wrote: truncated for ease of reference. xenoed wrote: okwoon wrote: I think they all count and are important to the shopowner.. not too sure if they count and are important to the other active shoppers though. . side note: your point of online users are irrelevant to this topic. Online doesn't constitute as Active, more like observers. good to have some mental exercise. Since you talked of the shopowner within your earlier post before the above, i had used the same position of the shopowner's perspective, in red. i think the statistics and figures are relevant to him in valuation/marketing terms. He may or may not disclose so to us. I have also have my doubts whether the figures are of importance to the other users. now i know a bit the view of one user at least. Thanks.. aiyo, OK. from the marketing & branding perspective, we do include all information when we do analysis. then we will filter the irrelevant info and make the important info to be called the intelligence. therefore, visitors do count. their input will be valued too. but priority will always be given to maintaining the loyalty of the active customers... we can't please the world. that's the general rule for marketing. ops. am i side tracked? p.s: OK, when are you joining the WGC game again? oh ya, this is Edwin, btw. haha

hi, edwin.
I enjoy the aboove mental stimulation. Sorry if i have shank any shots. Hehe

the WGC Games? Why Wood is back now and Woon can relax lah.
Anyway, jokes aside, will try to you again soon, esp if near Kajang, Capt!